Episode ten: Neurodiversity with Josh Dunn

Josh and Madeleine

Podcast Recap:
In this episode, Madeleine chats with Josh Dunn who shares his late-diagnosis journey with neurodiversity and the challenges of masking through school and early adulthood.

Josh offers powerful insights for parents, encouraging them to slow down, step back, and view their child’s behaviour through a logical, not emotional lens.

Josh introduces his youth project Breakfast at Dawn, which mentors neurodivergent and at-risk young people through school programs, fitness, and creative expression.

He highlights practical tools like journaling and co-designing communication strategies to help young people feel understood, supported, and empowered.

Full Podcast Transcript:

Madeleine:  Hey, Josh. Welcome.

Josh: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Madeleine: It's always a pleasure. Josh, could you start by sharing a little bit about yourself and your journey with neurodiversity?

Josh:  Of course. So I was a late diagnosed. I was only diagnosed, I think, by going on to the 18 months to two year mark. So it was very, very, very late. I'm about to have my 37th birthday. So all of this is sort of new to me, but it all makes sense once you start hearing about it. You start connecting the dots very, very quickly.

So, my experience with it, obviously the most pivotal part of it was, obviously school, particularly in those high school years going into my 20s. That's sort of where things where you start to separate socially. You start to understand that, hey, I'm like, a little bit different. And then, you know, you start, sort of like masking more and more. And then that sort of defines how you go into your 20s and then potentially your 30s. So, now, obviously knowing what I know, I've, I've started, like I said, connecting the dots. And I've realised, sort of the stuff that I went through when I was growing up, I see a lot of it still happening, particularly in the school spaces. And then I see a lot of parents also struggling as well. Most of the, the framework around these programs that we've designed design for school, which we'll get into. There's a core aspect of it that helps the teachers. It helps the parents understand as well. And it's not just designed for kids. So that's been like my neurodivergent journey in the last 18 months. It's kind of been like a whirlwind of not only coming to terms with who I am, but, educating myself on the space itself and the people that are in it. So it's been fun. It's been it's been exciting. It's been a little bit stressful as well. So it's been good.

Madeleine: I can imagine it's been a big journey. And I just do want to add my appreciation for you coming to this space and sharing your experience. We all know that you meet one neurodiverse person and you've met one neurodiverse person. So I really appreciate also your openness to to that everyone has a different journey. I do love the word that you use - masked. It's only something that I've come to understand a little more lately, and just hearing about how exhausting that can be for people when they don't even realise what's going on. So thank you for mentioning that. USo from your lived experience, what do you wish parents knew more about?

Josh: It’s a hard one. Obviously it's very easy to learn, but it's very hard to live with. Right? It's not so much the parents. I think it's just adults in general. I think a lot of kids are written off as bad kids. Pretty, pretty easily. For me, for instance. And this is sort of like the kids that we work with now, obviously we have a lot of trouble expressing ourselves to a point where people understand. So I think it's like if I was to give any advice to any parents or even teachers or adults, you need to slow it down. You really need to take a big step back, and then look at it from more of a less of an emotional thing, but more of a logical thing. So I remember growing up, the way that I, my thought process would go would be more of a logical way of analysing things rather than this emotional thing. So then when people started becoming emotional, I started becoming more logical and to the point where it would spill over into my emotional side, which is very hard to control. So I think it's like exactly that, just taking a big step back and trying to trying to remove yourself as an adult or as a teacher or anything and just being like, it's not personal. This is how they express themselves. Uh, and I'm understanding that.

Madeleine:  Wow. Thank you. I think that in itself is gold because, it helps give a little bit of structure. And it also is one of those things that I've learned more about recently is that window of tolerance. Sometimes emotion creates more emotion. So I think that that logical putting a structure in and you voicing that would be very helpful for parents and for any adults and people who work with young people or people who work with neurodivergent people. All of all of the above. Thank you. I'm hearing you talk about the work that you do with young people. Do you mind? Do you mind elaborating on that?

Josh:  Yeah. Of course. I have just started in what I call it, the youth business. It's sort of like my passion project called Breakfast at Dawn. The whole idea sort of came about was to just sort of get into schools and help, sort of underprivileged at risk or neurodivergent kids sort of exist in the space. There's a very fine line between between those kids. I would say, um, they're all like that whole square circle. Uh, sorry. Square peg round hole type thing. So it started as that and then it sort of spread out.

I have an NDIS business as well, where we have a couple of neurodivergent kids on board. So we started like, learning a lot about it. Right. So we started not just the, you know, the wants and the needs and the expectations of them. It was more like how these kids function, and then what I started seeing was a clear pattern. So say our youngest client would be 11. And then we had them up to 24, all with the same neurodivergence. So they had, like you said, they're all different, but they all had little things so you could see this timeline play out. So then we pivoted the breakfast at Dawn business to doing in-school programs. They'll be rolling out first term next year. So we've locked in a school. We're in the in the process of talks with two other schools at the moment. So hopefully we can roll that out where we we sort of shift the curriculum a little.

Not a lot of people know this - neurodivergent kids don't like being sat in a room and told to be quiet for long periods of time. They want to be able to express themselves, and they want to be able to, you know, particularly ADHD, find that dopamine hit. Right. So they need another way of learning how to regulate that in a place where they're trying to develop social structure. So these programs are are sort of off the background of what I have. I'm a personal trainer. Fitness was a big part of my life you know, learning how to regulate and stuff. But it's also mentoring these kids as well. I think I look at it from the inside. So it offers a perspective of being like, hey, you know, that we humans find solace in being surrounded by people that are similar to them, right? We we find a little bit of comfort in it. So being like, hey, this is what I did to get to here. You don't have to do that. But you can. You can figure out your own way. But this is what helped me.

So not only with the the whole structuring things around fitness, teaching them how to do things like journal, being able to express themselves through other means other than verbally, they can write it down. That's very impactful to me. because like I said, the idea of confrontation is very hard sometimes. So being able to write it down and pass it on is great. That's sort of where we're headed with both of the businesses. We're really aiming towards. Well, particularly breakfast at Dawn is getting into these schools, getting these mentor programs up and running. And then hopefully being able to teach these kids that there is a different way. It's not you. You're you are you're in this rigid structure, but it's not you. There's other ways to go about these things, and there's other ways you can learn and develop and get that spark of creativity that all of them have and really sort of foster it to, to make something better out of it. So, yeah, that's that's where we're at.

Madeleine: So just that! Makes my heart sing. I think that there were a few words that you said there, like it is a very “rigid system”. And it is one of those things that young people do struggle to fit in. And when there's laws and regulations that really expect parents to support their young person to abide by them, the rules that they don't fit in, it's a bit of a perfect storm I think, in a lot of households. And it's certainly not doing great favours for having our young people grow up feeling confident and well rounded. So I just love the ideas of sharing strategies. I very much feel that lived experience space where, “this is what worked for me”. “It may not work for you”. I think that that in itself would be something that would help open the doors and encourage others. And I think also, I would I would say, what are the some of the strategies that parents could use. And maybe this is one of the things is looking at and talking about some of these things. I think that you've mentioned the journaling, did you want to to elaborate on any of those?

Josh: Like I said, particularly with journaling, the reason why is, I think there is a point where all humans need to be able to express themselves in a safe space. And then what I found particularly difficult as a child, obviously, I saw the world very differently. I didn't understand why at the time, but like I said, I could see the logical solution to most problems. And I was talking to very emotional people about it. Typically, in these heated environments, the reason why journaling is so impactful, it allows you to write down your thoughts and feelings in the way that you want to do it, without having an immediate interjection of somebody who's not getting it. So then might not understand you straight away, but maybe if you, like I do it now with my partner, if there's something like I'm really struggling with, I'd prefer to do it through text because it gives us both time to digest the information a little bit, and then we can talk about it. It gives us the key points, and then we can do it without without this emotional thing kicking in, and people taking offence.

I don't know if a lot of people also know this, a bunch of kids are - I've been called sharp before. I'm very direct. It's not that I don't understand social cues. I don't understand emotional cues very well. So when I say something, I'm not saying it to hurt people, but obviously people take offence. So the ability to write down what you think and feel in a way that you go, okay, this works for me, but I can pass this on and then hopefully they can understand it. From my perspective, I think it's a very valuable tool for neurodivergent kids to have. Like I said, it works for me. It might not work for everybody, but I think if we equip these kids with a bit of a wheelhouse or tools that they can use in different situations, and maybe it might be effective rather than, all right, sit down. One on one from me. Let's talk. Right. Because to me, that's a nightmare. That's a I you know what I mean? Yeah, that's all all these programs are sort of about it's like, and like I said, there's an aspect of getting parenting afterwards and explaining this to them because I don't think a lot of them are heard. The communication is different, right? Let them express their communication in different ways, whether it be writing, drawing, whatever it may be. You have to let it out because it boils up and it boils over.

Madeleine:  I absolutely love it. And so even if it was something like instigating a conversation or a communication with how would you prefer to move forward with our communications? What works for you? And then allowing that to be nearly like a co-design kind of thing so that you can move forward together rather than saying, let's do it this way, because I think that works for you.

Josh: That's right. That's exactly it.

Madeleine: Love it. So this is just a really quick conversation to allow parents and to open the subject a little bit and to allow for conversation. Is there anything else that you would like to add to the conversation? Anything that you think would be helpful?

Josh: I think I brought this up the last time we met. Look, if I'm going to speak directly to parents, these are the key things we'll bring up. Parents have an extremely hard time, the cases of children having autism, it is climbing, but it is still very low. So they're dealing with a lot of outside voices telling them how to how to raise their children. It's a lot of noise coming at you. And then, I've seen the cases of both. Unfortunately, I've seen what happens when those voices take over for the parents. And it doesn't end well for anyone. And I've seen the parents who have ignored the voices and they've gone down their own path and they've figured it out and the outcomes are dramatically, dramatically different. So as a parent, take a massive step back. It's hard. I get it, it's very difficult. I was a difficult child. I understand it more than most, but it doesn't have to be that hard. They’re still children. Let them be kids. They just express themselves a little bit differently. Right? They still need structure. They still need balance. They still need a parent. And they still need people to believe in them. And this is the same thing that goes for, teachers in particular. It's not up to the teachers to do this. They should want to do it. It's up to the government to create a better change, I believe. But sometimes you just need to take a big step back. You know, most of these kids are particularly in low income schools. They're not diagnosed because the diagnosis is incredibly expensive. And the the process is very strung out. And you're dealing with a group of people such as myself, who my parents didn't want to go to the doctors because it came at a cost. So to get diagnosed doesn't exist. So for you to just assume that they're bad without taking a big step back and looking at the bigger picture, you're doing a lot of damage. I think that's it. It's kind of a bad note.

Madeleine: No, it's not a bad note. It's actually a very good note because you did start with saying it's a tricky job. And I would say from a parent's perspective, you don't know what you don't know. And that information that is filtering in is supposedly from authorities. And also from a legal perspective as well. So I think that something that I've learned on my journey as a parent, has been to find a place where I have more confidence to trust it more in my intuition, and to understand that the mental health of a young person is something that is is more important. Because once the mental health is feeling in a better space, other things fall into place. So I had to shift my focus dramatically.

Josh: That's right. One foot in front of the other. But look, like I said, I think like I've mentioned this many times, the stuff that you're doing is brilliant. This is the this is the thing that we need more of, we need more of this open conversation. And unfortunately, we're not getting it from the places that should be providing it as much as we as they should. So it's great that you're doing stuff like this. These conversations are extremely important in this space for people to understand. So I thank you for that. That's really good.

Madeleine: Thank you. I really appreciate it. Now, Josh, you talked about your business. Is there anything that you'd like to share with anyone to either to reach out or see more of what you're doing?

Josh: Yeah. Of course. So, like I said, I have the care business, but now that we've started, it's called Breakfast At Dawn so you can find me at www.breakfastatdawn.com or josh@breakfast.com is my email address. If people need me, reach out. I'm happy to have a chat to anybody about this stuff. It's a passion of mine, and I will invest as much time as I need to get the word out, as I can. So, that's where you'll find me. And then hopefully you'll see me in some schools soon.

Madeleine: Thank you. I really appreciate the work that you're doing in community. And I think the space of lived experience and sharing journeys is helping make change. So everything that you do is just so important and I'm incredibly grateful. Thank you.

Josh: Thanks, Madeleine. Appreciate it.

Madeleine: Josh, thank you so much for sharing your time and insights. Just to repeat, if you'd like to connect with Josh or learn more about his work, you can reach him at www.breakfastatdawn.com and if you'd like to know more about EPIC or join the EPIC community, head to our website at www.empoweringparentsincrisis.com. you'll find resources, events and ways to connect with other parents just like you. Thanks for listening and we hope to connect with you in the epic community one day soon. Bye for now. 

Gratitude to the Josh Dunn from Breakfast at Dawn for his support of EPIC and of parents in our community.

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This podcast was made possible by the support of the City of Ryde Council