Episode eleven: Heart-Centred Listening

Peter and Madeleine

Podcast Recap:
In this episode, Peter Coyle shares his journey from corporate life to becoming a psychotherapist and introduces the concept of heart-centred listening. Peter explains how listening with empathy, awareness of your own nervous system, and understanding the Polyvagal response can help parents and carers create safe, meaningful connections with their young people. Practical strategies and insights make this episode a valuable guide for fostering connection, understanding, and emotional safety in everyday interactions.

Full Podcast Transcript:

Madeleine:  Hi, Peter, thanks for joining us. Can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself and your background?

Peter: Sure. Happy to do that. I'm from New Zealand originally. I was brought up in a small town over there, and then I fell into, I suppose, a pretty good job in the corporate world and banking and finance and had a pretty good career. Had a good career for quite some time. And then 2008 the banking financial crisis hit, I got made redundant from Macquarie Bank for the first time in my life. And a few other things happened. Got divorced at that time, and effectively had a bit of a meltdown. A friend, a very good friend of mine said to me, Pete, you need to, you need to see someone you know you can't do this on your own. So I went and saw a guy and walked in there, he was a therapist, psychotherapist. It was the first place that I actually felt I could be myself. It felt very safe with him and in the environment that he created. And we worked together for quite some time. And then all of a sudden I thought, gee, I'd like to do this myself. I'd like to change chairs with the guy and see what it is. So that started me on a psychotherapy career. And so I went and studied Gestalt. And then I studied a few other things, breathwork and bits and pieces, but every time it sort of came back to the safety of that environment, that there's nothing for me, there's nothing better even in a therapeutic. Once I went through the studies, actually offering and being a witness to someone who feels safe in an environment. And that's where my interest in heart centred listening, which, you know, we'll talk about a wee bit later, is came from that. It's really not so much what you say all the time and trying to fix this and do that. It's how you are yourself in connection with someone else. And that started me on Sidewalk talk, the heart centred listening side and a few other bits and pieces. So, um, yeah, I'm quite passionate about it.

Madeleine: And I'm very grateful to have met you in this space as well. Thank you. And I just want to comment that from adversity came a life changing experience and a place to feel safe. Thank you.

Peter: Absolutely.

Madeleine: Well, I'm very excited to have you here and to introduce the concept of heart centred, listening to our parent community and to anyone else who is listening. For parents who may not have heard about the phrase before, what does heart centred listening involve?

Peter: Sure. So in its simplest terms, is listening with your heart rather than your mind. Instead of listening to respond, listening to answer questions, what have you, which has of course has a place in the world. But to actually understand that there are environments where it's better to listen with your heart. Now, as a therapist, we create a safe environment. We listen with our heart. Right. Because what it is, is the person opposite you is a human being. They are they going through whatever they're going through. And so you give them the space and you give them the safety for them to allow them to be who they are.

So the easiest way that I usually try to express or how how both mind centred listening and heart centred listening works in as what I call the dialogue continuum, which is a fancy way of, you know, there's different ways of communicating. So if you look at one end of the dialogue continuum, which is what I would regard, um, as the less human, more data or information. So if someone comes to you and says, you know, give me directions to this, this and that, you don't really care about them. You really care about giving them information about what's going on, where, where they want to go to. It's very data and information orientated. If you go to the other end of the spectrum or the other end of the continuum, if someone comes to you, which is more person centric, the person is the most important aspect, not necessarily what is said. What you know, what information or data is being said. Therefore, at that end of the at the spectrum, I suppose if someone comes to you and says, you know, my father passed away yesterday, you you won't go into the data information. You know, what did he die of like that? You'll have a warmth to them. You may not even say something. You may just hug them. You may, you know. So words become less important. So everything will be on this continuum. Every conversation will be somewhere along that. So what we're doing today is probably somewhere in the middle. There's a bit of heart, there's a bit of information going going through. So what I try to do is to, you know, to remind people to talk to people about where they are. So if you're in one part of the spectrum and the person's talking is at another part of the spectrum, you're going to miss each other, You're going to. You're just not going to be there with. For each other. So bringing it to. You know, the, um, a part where it's closer together is really important. Um, so creating environments where people can understand that and know not one's not right and one's not wrong, it's just where they are, um, is what I'm, you know, um, passionate about.

Madeleine: Thank you. I always love a framework. I think for me, because I can then put things in order if I can consider a conversation. And where I am at on the conversation, I see the line with the data driven at one end and the heart centred at the other end, and we're always going to be somewhere on there. And then that mirror neurone effect of when we're talking to somebody else, maybe having a consciousness or an awareness of perhaps where they are on that, which is a very helpful tool, I think particularly communicating with anyone but with our young people. Thank you, thank you.

Peter: Yeah. And, and as part of that, to know where you are in your own nervous system, to understand where that is. So if you if you come into a conversation with your own nervous system stretched, you might be in, you know, a highly energised state or a bit of a shutdown state, those sort of things, then they that makes it hard for you to ascertain yourself, let alone someone else. So that's the other thing. Whenever I do some heart centred listening training, I always start with you, you, you yourself. Right? Because if you come in with something, if you've got stuff on your mind and you're worried about this, worried about that or whatever, it's going to be difficult for you to actually be there with. On what part of, of of that continuum yourself, let alone understanding what others think. So there's there's that stuff around the Polyvagal theory where your nervous system is to understand where, where it is for yourself to, you know, it's just it's effectively sensing where things are. It's not a logical process. It's sensing that you're a bit stressed, you're a bit worked up, your heart rates a bit faster then you, then you're you're in your nervous system. Okay.

Madeleine: Thank you. So if it was to be a practical tool for parents or anybody to be able to implement it, your suggestion would be gain a knowledge of how you are at the moment and where you're where you're feeling. And and maybe the more people do that, the more they build a muscle to enable them to do that. And it becomes maybe more second nature. Um, are there any other practical strategies you can think of Cove that would help with that.

Peter: Yeah. So it's get to know your body, right? You know, just what I do with with my my clients is I give them a sheet and that they then over the week, go through and work out the different parts of the nervous system that they're in. So they feel comfortable, they feel social, they feel their mind switched on. Then chances are they're in their ventral vagal, they are in their socially connected sort of thing. Or if you feel your heart racing, you know, we, you and I were probably in our nervous system when we first started this thing because you need to be a little bit nervous when we when we're doing things like this. Right. That that's the energy aspect of it. So going through these things, going up and down these things, the different states is very important. So understanding the states that you're in is is is helpful when it comes to parents as to how they are with their kids first off. But also then recognising with with their kids if they're I, I always give the example of my daughter, you know when when I talk to her, she shakes her leg. Her leg goes like that. Which is. Which means there's no point me talking to her because she's in flight mode. She wants to. She doesn't like the conversation, so her legs start moving 100 miles an hour. So I just we just talked. Then we kick a ball around and she relaxes, and then she goes into another state and then everything's fine. So just having those little clues and that little bit of understanding of the nervous system and polyvagal, um, will help connection with the kids.

Madeleine: So two quick questions, and I imagine Polyvagal is a massive thing to dive into. Is there a very brief way that you could just quickly explain what the peripheral polyvagal system is?

Peter: Polyvagal really is your is is something that's unique to mammals. So all mammals have it and why all mammals have it is because kids, our babies are born needing protection, needing, um, straight away. Right? They need help and support. So all mammals are in exactly the same situation, right? So therefore, there's got to be a means of communication between the baby and the caregiver. So that's primarily right at the beginning through the nervous system. So you'll see a very small baby. The first thing that they do is they'll stare into your eyes. They'll look they have that intense look in the eyes. They're looking for safety. They're looking for this part around here. So your polyvagal one of your vagus nerve connects to areas around here.

Madeleine: Here being around your eyes for the listeners. Sorry. Just. Yes. So that's around your eyes and your eyebrows. People won't be seeing. Yeah.

Peter: To see wrinkles and stuff. They're looking to see, you know, those sort of things and also hearing. So these are the most basic clues of safety that a baby has. Right. So if your voice has an atonement it goes up and down. So when you're cuddling a kid oh they're there. They're like that sort of thing. It's the voice so they can hear it. So it smooths it down. We're we we naturally do it. So these the hearing part and this part around here is part of the vagus nerve. And it's connected to safety.

Madeleine: Okay.

Peter: Right. So that's what kids that who can't talk or can't do anything what they're trying to achieve, and it stays there all the way through. Stays, you know. So knowing so your nervous system and your emotional state are.

Madeleine: Linked. And so polyvagal is just the study of that nerve. Oh, that was brilliant. Sorry I threw that at you, but that was a brilliant explanation. Thank you. And I love the way that you peeled it back to birth, and that it's something that is there from the beginning, and it would remind us of how we felt when we held a baby, and we wanted them to feel that safety. Thank you. Thank you.

So what encouragement would you give to parents who feel like they're not getting it right?

Peter: Connection is everything. Holding that connection without forcing that connection is is everything. So if you have an understanding of your own nervous system, number one, then you'll soon get an understanding of your kid's nervous system. As I said, I do with my daughter and she's 30 years old. She's no little one, but I still use the skills of knowing when to talk to her.

You know, when her leg stops moving, because until then, nothing I can say will go. Go in because she's not listening to me. She's she wants to get out for whatever reason. She wants to get out of there. So, it's really it's all to do with the connection. And the connection starts with understanding yourself. How you are. And then it will move to understanding the kids, and then the two will come together. So you'll then start having a really good connection space where silence is okay, where people can be, or the kids or themselves. Parents can be how they want to be. So it's it's it's there's not a lot of complexity to it.

If you want to try and work out your own understanding, your own systems and how you are, um, once, once you've got the the first few things understanding and how you are, then things tend to fall into place pretty quickly.

Madeleine: It's very simple. I do love that framework of just one single line. And where are you on that line and how can I breathe in and feel? Feel the sensations in my body to know where I am, which in itself is something that is calming. And also getting into that empathetic space to understand how somebody else is feeling. Thank you. Is there anything else you'd like to share with anyone?

Peter: Like, I suppose the only thing is that all of this connection heals of itself. You don't actually have to do anything other than be there and be there in in a heart centred way that heals so much. So don't underestimate just quiet time. Just the, you know, just being there. Um, there's lots and lots of studies around the importance of the therapeutic, what I do for work. 90% of it is creating a safe environment for someone to feel safe enough to be seen and heard right? The rest is words over the top, you know. So, um, yeah, just be with as best you can with yourself and as best you can with your kids.

Madeleine: Oh, that is a perfect note to end on. Thank you so much, Pete. If people are interested in reaching out to you, where can they find you?

Peter: I've got my own website so they can reach out to me at www.petercoyle.co . Yeah, just drop me a line and we can have a chat.

Madeleine: That's perfect. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate everything that you are doing in our community. It is inspiring and making a difference. So thank you so much.

Gratitude to the Peter Coyle his support of EPIC and of parents in our community.

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